Rob: That's hard power. I interviewed Joseph Nye, who wrote the The Future of Power, and when he talks about hard power, it's power of coercion. And really, that's an awful lot of the power that we have in the United States period--in government and politics.
Marina: Around the world in fact.
Rob: He describes soft power as power of attraction, where people are attracted to something. People support and cooperate, because they are attracted to it. I think that is part of horizontalidad. I'm not sure I said that right.
Marina: / Yeah, that's right.
Rob: / Horizontalidad is the idea that power is attracted within movement, and then it's generated from it rather than purchased with money or weapons.
Marina: Exactly, that we created together. So, all these words that you were talking about, that the book is organized around, but it also tells one story of creating. The word you're using: creation--to create together, a new power that's not about a power over, and the way we do that is horizontally with horizontalizad, and using autonomy, and not doing it together without creating our own agenda, not that of the state other institutional power and then doing the creating, the autogestion, the self-organizing our lives and managing our lives. It tells a nice story that is both Argentina and actually Occupy Movements.
Rob: So, the next word is ""repression."
Marina: Right, which was based in Argentina, both with physical repression - people were killed in the first days of popular rebellion and then afterward. And then with repression using the court system to try to criminalize movements and protests -- no, not "also," that's "both" trying to shift popular opinion away from people organizing, as well as, then those people who are organizing get so caught up in defending one another, that you're caught up in the court system rather than your own agenda, which is hopefully not something we will face in the United States. And I think we just have to be very aware of it.