K.F.: Okay. It's a funny one this because undermining obviously, the ultimate aim of it is to remove this online existence but you can do a lot of things online to undermine. There are a few ideas, what they need to do is target the things that people have become dependent on online, so for instance, Wikipedia, it's seen as the, it's now pretty much seen as a statement of fact.
What appears in Wikipedia, that's the way things are. Of course that's framed in civilized terms but I don't have a problem with the information necessarily that's on there, what I do have a problem with is the way it's used and if you can, for instance make it so that people see the real information, the truth behind what a company does, what a politician does, what a media organization does, carefully change that information so that people are regularly seeing it and the messages are coming through.
There are lots of things you can do online but I don't want people to get the idea that somehow the interconnected sort of internet world has created a great change. It's done more damage than it's done good. But if we have to use it while it's still there for good, it's better than using it for harm.
Let's use it to try and damage the messages that are being put out by corporations. Let's pretend we're corporations. Let's make people believe that corporations are starting to tell the truth. Let's put information out that just makes people aware. It's being done constantly, those groups like the Yes Men who are doing this, WikiLeaks has done a lot of it as well.
There's so many organizations that are out there that are using the internet in some way in the best way they can. But ultimately the internet needs to go as well.
R.K.: Whoa. So okay. We're going to have to have some conversations about this.
K.F.: These are longer conversations.
R.K.: One more story that you tell is in the book. It's about a guy from Spain who borrowed hundreds of thousands of dollars and donated it to activist groups.
K.F.: Completely honest about it. It's a wonderful story. It really, it doesn't set a precedent. It's been done before. There's the myth of Robin Hood of course but Robin Hood was actually pretty middle class by all accounts, but we do have people that are trying to use the, I think we see a moral conundrum from civilization's point of view here because you're taking things from corporations and you're giving them to ordinary people.
You are putting things back where they should be. You're reversing exploitation. The fact that someone can be so audacious as to take out huge loans and then give the money to people in need, I think that's wonderful. And the more it can be exposed as
a good thing, the more it's made clear that actually these loans are just there to make people want more, to make people consume, to make people just keep being victims of the consumer culture, well I am just turning on it's head. You're offering these loans out? Yeah I'll have them. And then you know what I am going to do with them? I'm going to make things better for other people and I'm never going to pay them back.
So up yours. I think-
R.K.: What's the latest about it? From what I read he was in jail for about two months and-
K.F.: I haven't got an update about him. I haven't, it's not, I really should have pursued it, it's, yeah it's something I'm going to have to do more research on. I know it'll be nice to see what other people have done.
I mean, there are people that are doing things, I mention the underground before, there are people that are doing things far more dangerous than that but we don't know about them and we shouldn't know about them but sometimes if you do something then it should be, you should make it as public as possible. That is the decision you make and it's something I do address in Underminers.
You have to make a decision about how much exposure you're going to give to this. Are you going to keep it completely secret? Are you going to just leak as much information as can cause damage to your target, or are you completely open about this and it is a form of protection, being completely open because if you can expose real wrong then there is a chance as has been shown in the case only yesterday, as I am speaking of the guys who went to stop the train going into Drax Power Station in England and they were originally arrested but the fact that they exposed the policemen who was infiltrating their group, also exposed what they were doing as a really worthwhile thing.